Fine.
Call me when they want to do soemthing of use to the world, with what they've pooled their resources to buy.

Big whiner, aren'y you, Bithead?

“Call me when they want to do soemthing of use to the world, with what they've pooled their resources to buy.”

You have a right to be cynical. The real question is whether the Old European members of NATO are willing to fight for freedom. These clowns have parasited off the United States for decades. We were suppose to perform the sacrifices while they held us in contempt. Victor Davis Hanson argues that we should pull our troops out of Europe. It’s time for countries like Germany to embrace the responsibilities of adulthood. They have been acting like spoiled teenagers waiting for Daddy to take care of their needs.

David Thomson
"Victor Davis Hanson argues that we should pull our troops out of Europe."

Sounds like a good idea to me, it frees up troops for deployment elsewhere. The 4ID might be able to go home from Iraq. I doubt that Germany would collapse in to chaos and civil war if the US military was no longer deployed there.

Please don't stereotype me as a lilly-livered Socialist because I'm Spanish. We should stay in Iraq. But it would really help if your theocratic president would quit pulling rank on us and talk about what we are all in together. You know, like "liberal democracy", "western democracy", things like that.

His failure to do so makes me think he is not really interested in them and that his support for democracy in Iraq and his supposed sort-of support for liberalism in Iraq are just cover for some far-out Christian vision of his.

Say what...!?

Hmmm.

Big whiner, aren'y you, Bithead?

Not hardly.

However, DT reads my response correctly:

The real question is whether the Old European members of NATO are willing to fight for freedom.

My point exactly... and thusfar I don't see it, particualrly from France and Germany.

These clowns have parasited off the United States for decades. We were suppose to perform the sacrifices while they held us in contempt.

Exacty, David.

And Juan:

Please don't stereotype me as a lilly-livered Socialist because I'm Spanish. We should stay in Iraq. But it would really help if your theocratic president would quit pulling rank on us and talk about what we are all in together. You know, like "liberal democracy", "western democracy", things like that.

His failure to do so makes me think he is not really interested in them and that his support for democracy in Iraq and his supposed sort-of support for liberalism in Iraq are just cover for some far-out Christian vision of his.

If I was to complain about the Spanish President because he wasn't religious, you'd (rightly) call me a bigot.

How should I respond to your statement, do you suppose?

Victor Davis Hanson argues that we should pull our troops out of Europe.

Excellent idea. An amicable divorce from a nation increasingly dominated, it seems, by David Thompsons (and moronic pundits such as VDH) makes a lot of sense to us Old Europeans as well.

MARCU$

Doesn't joint procurement in the context of NATO pretty much just mean that the US is buying new toys for itself and others?

Brian - joint procurement means that the US gets to buy stuff cheaper than it would otherwise get to do. The US gets a bargain. The European states also get a good deal - they get to buy stuff (with their own money) that they would otherwise not be able to afford at all, thus helping them to put together enough of a military capability to stop Americans complaining about Euros not being able to pull their weight.

Whether we actually want to 'pull our weight' is another matter.

Well at the moment, cheaper goods for us does seem a good thing. And, on a secondary level, one could argue that the cooperation could lead to greater cooperation in other mil/defense areas, as well. (though I'd be amazed to see such cooperation ever come to fruit)

But I wonder about security matters. With weapons systems getting ever more techical in nature, I can't help but wonder where the information about such systems is getting to.

Hmmm.

1. Pull out of Europe.

Outstanding idea that's been a long time coming.

2. Pull out of NATO.

Now this would be great! Funny isn't it that America invoked Article 5 but the other NATO nations balked? So here we are. Article 5 of the NATO treaty invoked, due to 9/11, but nothing's been done on their part because we haven't pushed. Makes them pretty damn useless frankly.

3. "But it would really help if your theocratic president would quit pulling rank on us and talk about what we are all in together. You know, like "liberal democracy", "western democracy", things like that. "

Oh really? You're in favor of staying in Iraq *except* our "theocratic" "pulling rank" President forced you out eh? Bullshit. President Bush has his own religious beliefs but I haven't seen him try and convert anyone, so bringing his religious beliefs into any conversation is bullshit. Additionally I'd like for you to explain that "pulling rank" nonsense. I haven't seen anything remotely like that so I can only consider that statement to be bullshit right along with the other ones.

If you want out of Iraq because you got spanked by terrorists then go right ahead. But don't try and sugar-coat it by making bullshit excuses. It doesn't work and frankly sounds juvenile.

4. "Excellent idea. An amicable divorce from a nation increasingly dominated, it seems, by David Thompsons (and moronic pundits such as VDH) makes a lot of sense to us Old Europeans as well."

Sounds excellent to me. Frankly America has spent countless lives and about 7 trillion dollars defending Europe for just about nothing in return. Personally I think we should simply abandon NATO and tell you Europeans, and the world, that we won't interfere in Europe again. So if Putin succeeds in restoring the USSR then that's *your* problem. Don't call us.

5. "Brian - joint procurement means that the US gets to buy stuff cheaper than it would otherwise get to do. The US gets a bargain. "

Yeah, what a "bargin". Frankly noboody is going to build enough Predators and Global Hawks to really make a manufacturing difference. In exchange for this dubious benefit we get to transfer critical technology to our erstwhile "friends". :P