My initial response to this newest Nobel Peace Prize choice is very positive. So far Shirin Ebadi does not seem to be a multiculturalist “blame everything on the evil West” nutball. Is there something I’m not aware of? Is she truly someone not favorably inclined toward Fidel Castro, Yasir Arafat, and others possessing “revolutionary consciousness?” Is Shirin Ebadi too good to be for real? Damn it, I’m such a cynic.

A Nobel Prize given to a female advocating democratic values is a slap in the face to the Muslim reactionaries. It is a strong message that the “culturally imperialist” West will no longer look away when reactionary Muslims violate basic human rights. Have the weirdos who normally run the Nobel Prize committees actually changed their spots? Can someone who is not anti-American be selected?

At least it didn't go to the papus. I've had enough of his pontificating as if people actually heeded anything he said.
According to the BBC, this was the first nobel prize where someone was taking bets. An Australian fellow, I believe. Pontif was clear favorite. Also, it's good it didn't go to Bush or Blair for finally "ending" the Gulf War/Sanctions Regime.

“Also, it's good it didn't go to Bush or Blair for finally "ending" the Gulf War/Sanctions Regime.”

President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair deserve to share next year’s Nobel Peace Prize. Thank God that Iraq is liberated. America and her allies have much to be proud of. These two brave men have indeed made this a safer world. They have earned our gratitude and respect.

Gosh, are there actually a few people who wish that Saddam Hussein was still in power? Do they truly prefer that Iraqis be raped and tortured on a daily basis?

It's encouraging that a pro-democracy Iranian was chosen because it may be a sign that the West is starting to unite behind the idea that bringing democracy to the Middle East is essential in establishing long-term peace. The fact that Abadi opposes outside intervention in Iran probably also played a role since the committee just loves sending messages to the United States in its selections.

Dear Thomson,

That's the stupid admin line that's been going around. The fact is that every day Iraqis are still being raped, kidnapped, and tortured. The only difference is that Saddam is no longer ordering it. In fact, some of the same people are doing it - since Bremer in his less than infinite wisdom decided to bring back the same secret police who were doing in the kidnapping, raping, and torturing in the first place to work for *him*.

Correspondents on the ground report that if anything Iraqi police are more inclined to bribery and corruption than before. It's more chaotic and there are less mouths trying to take a cut of whatever the take is.

There's an old saying in Russia that goes something like this. Meet the new boss. He's the same as the old boss. Before you get too outraged about that remember that even Iraqis who like us are saying things like: Saddam the apprentice has gone. Now the master (of destruction) has come.

The truth is that "things getting better everyday" and its the news fault for sending up a bad perception only plays here in the States. Over there even pro-American Iraqis are incredibly frustrated with the level of incompetence.

I'm hoping they meant she was a "conscientious Muslim." Although I suppose being a "conscious Muslim" is better than the alternative...

“That's the stupid admin line that's been going around.”

The evidence doesn't even slightly support your pessimism. On the contrary, the situation in Iraq is significantly improving on a daily basis. Your hatred of the Bush administration is destroying your ability to think clearly. Furthermore, the available polling data indicate that the majority of Iraqis do not agree with you. Are you therefore implying that the pollsters are willing to lie for President Bush?

I don't know about anyone else, but my first thought upon hearing of this Nobel award was that this is a woman I have never heard of.

I don't know what that means. It may say something about me. It may signify that the Nobel committee was anxious to make a statement to the Muslim world, or the Iranian clerics, or even -- by a route so indirect that their intended audience probably missed it -- to the Bush administration as a make-up call for their statements about Jimmy Carter's award last time. Or it may just say that we don't get a lot of news from inside Iran.

Dave Thomsan said (hilariously):
"These two brave men have indeed made this a safer world. They have earned our gratitude and respect."

This made me laugh. I'll tell you why.
Firstly: "brave men". Did either of these men take an opportunity to join the services? NO! Bush was herded into the texas air national guard, jumped the waiting list, and then went AWOL for a year! What is brave about that? Of course, all the people who fondle the Bush flight suit action figure and fantasize about how he's such a brilliant wartime leader never mention his total lack of bravery, courage and respect for our armed forces.

Second: "have indeed made the world a safer place"
How did you figure that one? Did the RAND corperation tell you that? Though time will tell, there is nothing to indicate that the chances of terrorists getting WMDs or staging major attacks has been diminished in the least. I welcome some evidence, Mr. Thomson. After Israel and Columbia, the USA is the top target for a potential terrorist attack. I have yet to see any evidence, even in the Weekly Standard or FAUX News that points to "Operation Iraqi Freedom" having any effect on global terrorism, except giving fundamentalists a fertile mental and physical training ground. Thanks Bush, Blair!
Thirdly and finally, "our gratitude and respect"
Please Please, speak for yourself. Say: MY gratitude. Bush is obviously the least respected American president for a long time. And dont tell me that 50% plus of the country agrees with you, because I dont trust polls, and its not as if having more than 50% of people vote for something actually means it will pass or that you will become elected.

Also, I have a suggestion for you Dave. How about we "liberate" syria and iran and the palestinian lands as well. I'm sure they would appreciate us decorating their landscape with a few "democracy craters", just so they dont feel Iraq got all the lovin'.

(and dont bring back that tired "you saddam lover" response. Hey, it was Rumsfeld, and Reagan and Bush I who were shaking his hands, helping him gas persians and supporting the brutal crushing of the Shia, all in the interest of OIL (remember?) So I dont love Saddam. I hate him. But I think we could have killed him (which we haven't done) with out having to destroy the whole bloody country so Bechtel and Halliburton can rebuild it.)

“...because I dont trust polls”

Your attitude suggests that you prefer wallowing in your prejudices. Legitimate pollsters are our best bet to accurate gauge the mindset of the general public. The only real debate is how they phrase their questions. Other than that, it is a highly skilled profession where one is rewarded almost solely on accuracy. For instance, God help any Democrat polling organization that might have predicted Arnold Schwarzenegger was not going to easily win the California governor race. They would be laughed out of town. It matters not a whit if you are a conservative or liberal pollster---you just better be right---or your reputation will be ruined.

I was just listening to the Beeb's Iran correspondent on "The World" (I know, I know, dreadful show but any noise is welcome when it's laundry day). I daresay there will be some disappointment in Europe at the positive reaction to this announcement here in the Land of Bush. According to the Beeb guy (responding to a question about the differing approaches of Europe and the US to Iran--the one "engaging" the dummy reform govt, the other supposedly "isolating" it) this should be seen as a thumb in the eye to the Yankee imperialists. So I ask you, fellow pigdogs, what are we missing?

It's bad enough that you interrupted your non-stop Plame/Wilson blogging for mere religious observance. Now you choose to use your blog to draw attention to something as trivial as the pursuit of democratic reform in the Muslim World. Shocking. Obviously, the award should have gone to that great patriot and truth-teller, that titan among men, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, anyway.

Thanks dave. That's your rebuttal.
Great. I dont trust polls because its all in the question. For instance, no majority ever answered yes to "is A. Swartz... qualified to be governer?" but they still voted him in. Similarly, while a majority of Iraqis would say to pollsters that they want the americans to stay, this is because we've offered them no realistic alternative (our way or the highway)

I really expected more from you dave.
I thought you might tell me how bush really is brave and how we really are safer from terrorism.
You dissapoint me.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1521&u=/afp/20031009/pl_afp/us_diplomacy_threat_031009192152&printer=1

Yahoo News:
"The US State Department has lodged a vehement complaint with prominent conservative televangelist Pat Robertson for comments suggesting that its Foggy Bottom headquarters should be destroyed with nuclear weapons, officials said."

J.Locke said:

Also, I have a suggestion for you Dave. How about we "liberate" syria and iran and the palestinian lands as well. I'm sure they would appreciate us decorating their landscape with a few "democracy craters", just so they dont feel Iraq got all the lovin'.

I guess I would say "sounds good to me, but you forgot North Korea and Saudi Arabia"

You make it sound bad to liberate people.

When I used to live in the former Soviet Union people were glad to be liberated, even if things were worse than they seemed to be under the old system. They saw the possibility of improvement, which was never there before. I think the same will be said about Iraq.

On a related note, people always remember that bread and sasuage was cheap, not that they had to stand in line all day to get it, and again I think it is a similar situation in Iraq.

Bart

JLocke, i wont call you a Saddam-lover, but, I'd say you are one big jackass!!! spare us your cynicism and your leftist canards. So, keeping the population of Iraq under the murderous regime of Saddam and Sons was a bad thing, eh? I havent sen to many reports of Iraqis, even those protesting t he slow pace of the return to normalcy, asking for your friend Saddam to be reinstalled. Crime, as you say, still happens in Iraq, but, surely you must know that the mass killings of dissidents, torture, rape, incarceration does not happen any more, at least not at the level it did and sanctioned by the State ruled by Saddam.
As an immigrant from a 'socialist paradise" I find the attitudes of American leftists like you odious. You would love to have people in our former homelands suffer and rot in hell, just so you could sit in cafes, sip lattes with your fellow lefties, and pontificate about how anyone who disagrees with your leftist, dictator-supporting views are dangerous right-wing monsters.

So I guess I wasn't the only one. This thread starts out talking about the Ebadi award and all anyone wants to do is sling posts about Iraq back and forth.

How can you construe a left-right argument when I say, and I quote:
"(and dont bring back that tired "you saddam lover" response. Hey, it was Rumsfeld, and Reagan and Bush I [the first] who were shaking his hands, helping him gas persians and supporting the brutal crushing of the Shia, all in the interest of OIL (remember?) So I dont love Saddam. I hate him. But I think we could have killed him (which we haven't done) with out having to destroy the whole bloody country so Bechtel and Halliburton can rebuild it.)"

Key words there: WE COULD HAVE KILLED HIM.
WE DID NOT KILL HIM
HOW IS THAT LEFTIST?
HOW IS THAT WANTING HIM TO REMAIN IN POWER.
we SHOULD have killed him. We did not. We did destroy a lot. We did kill thousands of civilians, which you can confirm from multiple western news sources at iraqbodycount.net.

But the real issue is that anyone who questions the furer bush is labeled a "leftist". I don't stand for a control economy. Did you ever think that I might be a libertarian? Farther to the right of Bush? No, you obviously did not consider that, which is too bad. This country has been stifled by the two party system into a shouting match of degenerates.

It resembles Elephant-Man Don Zimmer (Yankees=Republicans) Charging Democratic Dominican Pedro Martinez and getting easily tossed to the ground like dirty laundry.

“My initial response to this newest Nobel Peace Prize choice is very positive. So far Shirin Ebadi does not seem to be a multiculturalist ‘blame everything on the evil West’ nutball.”

It has been roughly two days since my I posted my earlier comments. The odds are increasing improving that Shirin Ebadi may very well be a pro-Western values Muslim similar to Ataturk. Still, I will feel much better if she publicly has some nice things to say concerning Israel. This is the true test for a Muslim advocating for freedom and justice for all.

Have Daniel Pipes or William F. Buckley become secret members of the Nobel Peace Prize committee? I am simply amazed by this particular choice. Could there possibly be a change for the better occurring within the ranks of Old Europe’s liberal establishment? I am cautiously optimistic---but remain somewhat skeptical. Am I overly cynical?

"publicly has some nice things to say concerning Israel. This is the true test for a Muslim advocating for freedom and justice for all."

Yes! It would be wonderful if Muslims decided that Apartheid and Jim Crow-like segregation was proof that Israel is the model fascist racist liberal democracy we all hope the USA can one day be. Only democracy in the middle east! Who cares how many disenfracished Christians and Muslims live in "greater israel". In fact, how about Israel uses those american nuclear submarines to cover the West Bank and Gaza with a nuclear cloud. There's a final solution to the peace process for ya.

Found your site through andrewsullivan.com -- thought I'd say good job and you've been added to my favorites for future perusal. :)

Anytime a pro-Democracy Muslim (and female, no less!) gets airtime, it's a good thing. If the struggling Iraqi Democracy succeeds, people like Shirin will be the future role models.

I personally thought http://ludicrosity.com/ had a really good take on this issue as well. From what I've read so far, you, andrew, and ludicrosity might be my three favorite blogs!

“Yes! It would be wonderful if Muslims decided that Apartheid and Jim Crow-like segregation was proof that Israel is the model fascist racist liberal democracy we all hope the USA can one day be. “

You are obviously very familiar with the slanderous writings of the late Edward Said and the hateful Noam Chomsky. It would behoove you to instead read the brilliant insights of Bernard Lewis. The reality is that Israel is a beacon of light to the Muslims of the Middle East.

The liberal establishment has greatly damaged the Muslim world by encouraging it to indulge in self pitying victimization. This immature mindset must be overcome if Muslims are to become members of the modern world. Ataturk rightfully realized that reactionary Muslim leaders are responsible for this decline. The West is their only chance for secular salvation.

Shirin Ebadi is hardly alone. If anyone is interested in the views of Arab progressives, there are some excellent editorials at www.memri.com. Of particular note are opinion pieces from the new Iraqi press--which tend to be far more optimistic than the same articles in the West.

So Iraqis are "incredibly frustrated at the incompetence" of Americans, according to Oldman (reporting direct from Tikrit, no doubt). I'm sure the Iraqis would be far happier to have, say, the United Nations handling the occupation and reconstruction of Iraq. Witness the superb job the U.N. has done recently in Zaire, and such great past successes as Rwanda, Cambodia, etc.
Perhaps Saddam's brutal fascist regime was more competent when it destroyed the Iraqi economy and countless people's lives in order to build palaces for torturers.

To even suggest that pre and post-war Iraq are the same demonstrates a stunning level of gullibility and lack of any historical sense. During Saddam's regime, an estimated 1 million Iraqis were killed, and another 4 million went into exile. Comparable perecentages in the U.S. would be 11.2 million people killed and an incredible 44.8 million exiled.

'The reality is that Israel is a beacon of light to the Muslims of the Middle East.'

Except the hundreds of women and children slaughtered at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982. Israeli Minister of Defence at the time? Ariel Sharon. That beacon of light is still shining. Whatever the failings of Muslim societies, and they are many, the idea that land confiscation, military invasions, armed oppression and disenfranchisement are an ideal to be aspired to by Muslims is dubious. Surely better goals would be democracy, religious tolerance, equal rights for women and the right to own land without extremist ideologues of any kind annexing it.